Mike Lorrey is a Liar
Unofficial FSP NH Wiki about Mike Lorrey
Here is a quote from the Unofficial FSP NH wiki about Mike Lorrey:
"He is currently involved in the Free Town Project to move FSP members to one small population NH town to serve as a test bed of libertarian ideas..."
Just economic huh?
Can you please point us to the info on the Free Town Project? How do you join? Do I have to be a FSP member to join? How do you recruit?
Who is the leadership of the Free Town Project? If FTP kicked Zack out, who decided kicked him out, and when?
What are Free Town Land Development (FTLD), and the other land development groups? What are the names of the entities that have been buying land in Grafton?
At least Zack does not lie, and will answer questions when asked.
----------------------------------------
Trying to Organize ‘Anarchy'
By Jodie Tillman, Valley News, 2/22/04 Also available in at the FSP site : http://www.freestateproject.org/news/media_archive/0191.jsp
"As his companions chewed quietly, Lorrey talked about one way of accomplishing what they referred to as the Free Town Project: build affordable housing in one town and give priority to libertarians, or “liberty lovers,” migrating to New Hampshire.
He had been talking to a lawyer about their preliminary plan: form a board of directors for a development company, get at least $200,000 worth of investments, buy a large expanse of land and put up condominiums or other housing. People associated with the Free State Project would buy into the company.
The town could be a “Plymouth Rock, a place where people can land,” said Geshlider, who is a developer.
The rent would be $100 a week, with just the basics of heat, electricity and “definitely high-speed Internet,” he said."
"...Michael Lorrey, a Grantham resident who is helping recruit for the project and was willing to move if another state had been selected."
---------------------------------------
Mike, are you still an extropian transhumanist?
We just want the truth Mike.
55 Comments:
A Free Town Fairy Tale
Once upon a time, there was a group of people scattered across the US who believed their governments were oppressing them.
Instead of staying and working to fix their own problems in their Cosmopolitan-but-Oppressed states, they decided to move to a state, then a town, that they thought was freer.
They all promised to move. But then they discovered the state and town weren’t as free as they thought, that it fell short of the Utopia of their dreams. So even though they lived 1000s of miles away, they started to rag on the state, the town, and the people who lived there.
“Poor ignorant hicks!” they said. “You’re oppressed! We will come and free you.”
Most had never set foot in the state or talked to a resident, but the outsiders told the people, “You will be so grateful for our help that you’ll let us take over.”
They began to buy land in the chosen town and one day decided to tell the people of their plans. They were so surprised when the people told them, “We don’t want you here. How would you know what is best for us when you don’t even live here?”
The outsiders were shocked, just shocked. “We know what’s best for you,” they said, “why can’t you see that?”
The residents fought back which made the outsiders fight among themselves until no one could decide what to do. So the outsiders changed their minds and told the people, “We never wanted to live in your dumb town anyway. Besides, you’re all stupid and deaf.”
The outsiders stomped off and headed to another town north of the Notches. But it was too late. Everyone in the state had heard how they treated the town and fought back, too.
The poor outsiders returned to the land of the Cosmopolitan-But-Oppressed and the people of the state and town sang and danced.
THE END
10:53 AM
we're still coming.We merely paused to reload
4:22 PM
Nicely put. "We just want to be good neighbors." Right.
4:55 PM
Never pause to reload. That is what sidearms are for.
6:22 PM
According to the NPR interview:
Holy smokes: So the founders of this Blog are actually only recent immigrants to Grafton themselves.
Isn't there more than a little irony in the idea of moving to Grafton and then closing the doors to newcomers?
6:50 PM
Whoever that caller was that said "These arrogant jerks in Florida who are all talk, don't have the guts or the brains to "takve over" anything!"
Whoever said that - High Five! YES - Exactly!
6:53 PM
Where do you get the "closing the door to newcomers"?
I can't find that.
9:33 PM
FTP/FSP actually think THEY are UNBIASED. LOL!
8:30 AM
I may be new to Grafton, but I am not new to NH. And anyway, I did NOT bring or attempt to bring an internet board voting block with me when I moved to Grafton. That is what we are talking about here. No one cares or notices when someone buys something in Grafton normally. This is all becasue of the FSP/FTP. If you have a specific thing you don't like or believe is incorrect on this blog, then post your concerns.The same FTP members who were discussing taking over Grafton since February of 2004 are still doing so! They just don't want the press to know because they want to protect JasonPSorens' baby the FSP.
8:38 AM
>They didn't say that they were "closing the doors", but they did mention something about being unbiased. lol
Who is "they"?
8:39 AM
>I will say that they are akin to the FTPers, in that when they get on the radio they just say (not an exact quote) "oh we dont have an agenda." Just look at the name!!!!
-------------------
The quote would have been "Tried not to put too much spin on it".
That is no where near your quote, and does not mean nearly the same thing. The agenda is as stated "Save Grafton from the free town project".
You must have some preconcieved notions to come up with the misquote you did.
1:32 PM
>Of couse the FTPers have an agenda, and they don't have to explain it to ANYONE
-------------------
Then they should have said "no comment" instead of LIE.
1:33 PM
I will say this again:
If you see false informantion, let me know, and if it is false, I will remove it or fix it.
The agenda of this site is to make available what has been discovered about FSP/FTP. What the FSP presents to outsiders in not the same as what they say to each other. Do the research your self.
1:50 PM
>THESE PEOPLE ACTUALLY CAME TO TOWN TO EXPLAIN TO PEOPLE JUST WHY THEY WERE MOVING INTO TOWN!!!!
No, they came to place all blame on Zack Bass. Didn't you notice that? Then they said "We just want to be good neighbors". OK, I believe you.
Why does FTP not have a website?
Did you hear Tim say they did not know how to put up a website?
That is funny considering Mike Lorrey's experience includes: "1996 brought Mike back to New Hampshire, where he was engaged in computer consulting in various areas: technical writing, web development, programming, graphic design, network/information security analysis, and CAD."
1:57 PM
I find it hard to believe anything they say when I can point out so many lies.
1:59 PM
"...Michael Lorrey, a Grantham resident who is helping recruit for the project and was willing to move if another state had been selected."
So, Mike was willing to move to one of the 49 slave states if one was selected. Intresting.
2:03 PM
not to speak for or defend Mike Lorrey...
If another state HAD been selected, then the assumption would be that that state would have been the most free state and not New Hampshire, thus not one of the '49 more slavish' states...
I wouldn't try to read into things what isn't there - it will drive you nutso!
michael
2:18 PM
Curtis - The only agenda this site had was to let people of Grafton and NH know about what we discovered about the FTP. I am not sure of any other agenda you mean? I AM tolerant. Obviously they can move here. I wouldn't have put up this site except I felt some of their plans for Grafton were shocking. I have seen their whole plan via their yahoo email group. They have taken it down now that the press started to look. If they told the truth at the meeting we no longer need this website. Rebecca
2:54 PM
Rebecca!
You have seen the WHOLE plan? Really? Considering that I have been an definite part of the entire 'Grafton' thing, and I, myself, have NEVER seen 'the plan' - perhaps you could enlighten me... a summation would suffice, I have never seen any sort of formal declaration of a plan so I do not expect you to have proof of such... just your assumptions and intinations will do (is that a word?)
Zack had many 'brain storms', of which none were selected.
I had a few, and Joe had one. Some others also made suggestions. Chuck was very outspoken also, but tends to be a bit more pragmatic (though still crazy) in his ideas.
Here is what IS happening:
Mr. Hull purchased alot of property: disposition unknown, future plans unknown. He has indicated he might be willing to parcel in down for a select few friends/libs to purchase. For all anybody knows, he could be planning on building Disneyland or a wildlife refuge - its all guesses and innnuendo at this juncture.
Everyone Else: NO ONE has committed to anything yet, everyone spouts 'ideas' - from fantastic fantasies to possible business ventures... but, it is purely horseshit until they start actually putting in money towards something... this is one thing I have learned in my dealings with other libs, we love to 'talk/debate', but lord help us if we ever actually got out of our comfortable chairs and DID anything!
Also note, before this whole 'Grafton' episode even came to light, there was/is a sub-group that has some interest in looking towards a Western State to land in, there are some things discovered about NH that some consider a major obstacle to obtaining liberty in our lifetimes...
michael
3:52 PM
I really can't keep up with all the different parts of this Blog - join this Yahoo Group and we can talk, and Zack (I am sure will be there as well - Zack also has a forum to post questions to which is good also, up to you.... if you want to grill us on anything from 'What the Heck are you doing?' to 'Libertarianism is Stupid!', we will be happy to oblige... there.
I created a Yahoo Group expressly for the purpose of discussing items with Grafonites, if anyone cares to participate or lurk, it could be very enlightening... I do not know if anyone from Grafton will join up...
Group name: GraftonCrisis
Group home page: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/GraftonCrisis
Group email: GraftonCrisis@yahoogroups.com
Zacks Forum:
http://forum.freecountyproject.com/index.php?board=8
thank you for your time...
michael
8:40 PM
I'm just about done here Michael. This wasn't to explain libertarianism. It is about a voting block. Why won't you guys listen to me?
This email from the free_town_project yahoo group seems like a pretty good summation of 'the plan'.
Win elections in one town(Grafton) by bringing in a voting block. Create Libertopia. Use Libertopia to attract more Libertopians. Rinse, repeate with state.
********************************
From: "Gold Standard Press" [gsp76@n...]
Date: Tue Nov 11, 2003 7:20 pm
Subject: Re: [Free_Town_Project] Re: What is this project called?
I'm with Zack on his idea. I see NO reason to have to convince people that they should just give us freedom... that which is Rightfully/Constitutionally ours. I fail to see what other "project" there is... The different towns would just be marketing to different lifestyle folks... but the strategy remains the same in each. WIN ELECTIONS BY BRINGING IN VOTING BLOCKS to overwhelm those in the respective towns who have NO affinity for the US and NH Constitution.
c.
----- Original Message -----
From: libertarian40
To: Free_Town_Project@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Tuesday, November 11, 2003 1:57 PM
Subject: [Free_Town_Project] Re: What is this project called?
Well, I can think of at least two types of "Free Town Projects", and was trying to differentiate between them in my first post. That is why I referred to one of them as a "Zack Bass" type of project. He has been very insistent that overwhelming the town with sheer numbers is that only way a "Free Town Project" can work. So perhaps some other name for a different philosophy might be helpful so as to avoid confusion.
--- In Free_Town_Project@yahoogroups.com, "Gold Standard Press"
[gsp76@n...] wrote:
> nah.
>
> The Free Town Project is perfect....
>
> and you know it.
>
> c.
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: libertarian40
> To: Free_Town_Project@yahoogroups.com
> Sent: Tuesday, November 11, 2003 1:04 PM
> Subject: [Free_Town_Project] What is this project called?
>
>
> I'll call it the "Chuck Geshilder" project if you'd prefer.
>
> --- In Free_Town_Project@yahoogroups.com, "Gold Standard Press"
> [gsp76@n...] wrote:
> Come ON folks... I'd like to, as they say: "make a few bucks"
from
> all this, too!!! LOL Pass around the credit where due......
=============================
From: "Captain H. Bruce Hartgers" [ThePHNX@u...]
Date: Wed Nov 12, 2003 10:02 am
Subject: Re: [Free_Town_Project] Re: What is this project called?
I guess THAT is what has us all here and (even!-) willing to move to
NH. HBH
Zack Bass wrote:
>
> --- In Free_Town_Project@yahoogroups.com, "Gold Standard Press"
> [gsp76@n...] wrote:
> > I'm with Zack on his idea. I see NO reason to have to convince
> people that they should just give us freedom... that which is
> Rightfully/Constitutionally ours. I fail to see what other "project"
> there is... The different towns would just be marketing to different
> lifestyle folks... but the strategy remains the same in each. WIN
> ELECTIONS BY BRINGING IN VOTING BLOCKS to overwhelm those in the
> respective towns who have NO affinity for the US and NH Constitution.
> >
>
> The sad fact is, you will NEVER EVER EVER Convert an appreciable
> number of Statists to libertarians. No matter where you go, you'll
> get about ONE PERCENT and that's it.
> The only way to become a Majority is to bring in libertarians from >the rest of the U.S. Only by concentrating in one area can we ever
> prevail in that area.
********************************
This email from the free_town_project yahoo group seems like a lot more than just a 'brain storm'. Sounds like money has dropped!
********************************
From: Tony Stelik [tonys@b...]
Date: Mon Mar 8, 2004 11:19 am
Subject: RE: [Free_Town_Project] quality AND quantity is growing
>If Im directing this to the right person, your the guy who wants to
buy up land and resell to FSPers for profit, right? This isn't a very
popular idea among some who think your just being a Pirate. If im wrong
I apologies, but this is what iv heard.>
Because of prevailing zoning in NH the land and houses are very expensive.
If you would connect the price of properties to ability of money making
through the jobs, the price is at least 50% too high. FTLD is coming with
the plan of buying land at the price of $1000 per acre and building first
dwellings within the price of about $20,000. Any profit will be reached by
reselling or renting the shares in property. Of course you can go on your
own paying well over $6,000 per acre and double price for housing. I.e.
there is mobile house on 9.5 acres for $70,000. And it seams in there as a
good deal!
Chuck is not a member of FTLD - he refused this position for the conflict
of interests. It only shows his integrity.
BOD includes John Babiarz and Henry McEnroll.
>There is a way to do this where
everyone involved, including the purchasers would gain, instead of just
a few. <
Purchase will be done by BOD representing all who will want to take part in
the action. BOD is not the only investing body. BOD pledges $1,000 each and
this is requirement to be on BOD at this moment. Also BOD members must be
able to make it to the meetings and be able to perform all sort of work as
required. It was hard to get 9 people to BOD, who decided do something.
Trustee seat will be about $20,000 and everybody willing can acquire this
seat is welcome to do so.
>What I propose could, if I decide to propose it at all, would
grant 1 million very quickly, first 12 months of being enacted then
another million the second year. After that who knows, but thats not a
bad start.<
You are welcome to invest in FTLD and later sell your position with the
profit, you can start your own Land Development (the more the merrier), you
can build another no zone town - the sky is the limit.
>I would not want to be involved except to show you how it's done, but
I would want someone like Zack, the Captn and Tim to manage it. If your
really interested in getting this thing off the ground, then whose in
charge of the check book wont matter. Let me know if you have any
interest and you can get together with the others and get busy.
---Shawn<
As a member of BOD I extended invitation to Captain and he would be very
welcome amongst us. Also If he wishes (and this goes to Blue Floridian as
well as to Bob and everybody else) there is enough place for not one Land
Development but even four.
Locals ARE interested in FTP, FSP and ARE welcoming all of us.
And if we will be coming with the businesses locals will be even more
welcoming.
Porcupine's Lunch Club is attended every week by still bigger number of
locals who many times enthusiastically are getting involved in one or the
other programs of ours.
My suggestion to Henry McEnroll to create Republican "Welcome to the
Granite State Comity" was taken very seriously.
Do not prejudge from afar and base on internet communication.
******************************
12:16 AM
ok, I get it... its the whole 'voting block' issue. Lets get on into that then...
What is wrong with it? When a company moves into an area, their employees (made up of both locals and imports) has a bias towards political issues favoring the company. Granted, this is slightly different from a 'company' but there are definite similarities...
Perhaps, the best thing to do is to look at what your 'worst case' scenario actually might be:
In all of our talks, we were shooting for the possibility of attracting 200 or so libs to Grafton. This is probably a high figure when compared to reality - but, lets go with it. Grafton has over 1200 residents. Even if this scarey 'voting block' ALL vote exactly the same on a particular issue, the 'old' residents can easily vote them down with the same show of force that this meeting garnered, roughly 200 folks.
Lets say that these 200 actually have some of the 'old' grafton citizens on their side.... now things change totally in that not only can the lib measures get passed BUT it is with consent on at least a part of the previous Grafton residents... not 'taking over' at all!
Either way, lets say that this voting block gets to have their way in the towns politics... what are the things you are most worried about? We can tackle those issues seperately.
So, if one person moved - you would have no problem. If he invites a couple friends to move, you still have no problem. But if a group of people would like to join together in an effort to concentrate their voting power, it becomes a problem? We would gladly form our own town (my personal choice), but doing so in NH is a huge obstacle and is determined at the state level - a level that minority parties are pretty much excluded from having much of a say. We are determined to do everything 'by the rules' - the rules that you and the NH state government have laid out.
You mentioned that you are desiring to end this dialogue. As you wish. I hope that you do not spend nights laying awake over this 'crisis' - you graftonites weathered the 'moonies', and as New Hampshirians(???) you are fighting valiantly against the overwhelming numbers of statist immigrants flooding across from Mass. - you are sure to weather this 'crisis' even easier: we are 6-12 folks who can't even decide on where to store monies collected in an investment group, and the best choice to come out of that was to store it in a coffee can? Really! I just can't believe that you are threatened by me or my friends/associates/etc...
michael
1:01 AM
I do not live in New Hampshire but I want to express my support for you Grafton residents who are standing against this assault. It is difficult, I know, and you did what you could to give these folks an opportunity to express honestly their intentions, but to no avail. All you seem to have done is to expose their nasty underside, to bring their venom and disarray out into the open. But that is good in itself. Please do not give up. These denegrators of law and government are not the only such threat abroad. What happens in Grafton is important to all of us in America today, because we remember what they have forgotten: that government IS us. If government or its laws and regulations fail us, it is WE who have failed. Let's try to remember that the Founding Fathers, and the enlightened among the leaders who followed, were members of our community who stepped forward to take an active part in founding a new nation or in maintaining a great one, and they did not do it by abdicating their responsibility to establish and uphold government and the rule of law. Let me excerpt yet again from the final words of Mr. Lincoln uttered at Gettysburg, lest anyone forget what it is all about: "It is rather for us to be here dedicated to the great task remaining before us ... that government of the people, by the people, for the people, shall not perish from the earth." I am with you in spirit, residents of Grafton, NH, and so too I am sure is the spirit of those founders of our nation, and the spirits of all of us out her who love our nation and who are watching this unfold.
11:12 AM
Who are you? 'we' are government? ...and folks call libertarians 'utopians' - this is the most crazy thing I've heard yet! 'I' am not government when it steals my hard earned labor or money from my business which I could be using instead to hire many more much needed employees... 'I' am not government when it fines me for deciding to not wear my seatbelt because I JUST PLAIN DON'T WANT TO! (so what, sometimes I make dopey, commonsenseless decisions... but they affect only ME!). 'I' am not government when I am forced to live on the opposite side of town rather than at my place of business due to insane zoning nazis... no, none of us are government....
michael
3:00 AM
NHObserver, first of all, thanks for at least using some sort of name to refer to you by... I really do appreciate it.
Your post actually would have been quite funny, except it highlights something very sad in our country, something that people like you and I have the ability to cure... if we were allowed to:
========================
In the freetownproject group, the barely literate "nebk1216969" says:
-----
I AM A RES OF GRAFTON AND I HAVE BEEN DOING ALOT OF READING. i
BELIEVE THAT you folks are free allready and don't need the shit town goverment and politics. there are curupt goverment officiels in this town and if they don't stop messing with me and doing what thay are sopose to i am going to spill some good shit that u might like to here to help your fight to grafton a lot eazery...........
-----
Maybe the FTP/FSP have found some kindred souls in Grafton. ;-)
/s/ NHObserver
=============================================
wanna bet he/she had the glorious enlightenment of a 'public' education?
yes, there are kindred souls in Grafton, so far, more than I have seen in opposition! I think that we (FTPers) were correct in our assessment that Grafton is indeed 'our kinda town' filled with 'our kinda people'... I truly do feel sorry for those few statist there, where will you go to worship government now? How will you ever get to tell your friends, your neighbors, your town how they should act, paint their house, mow their lawn, educate their children, if you are denied political power to force them to do as you desire?
Sorry for the 'nastiness' of this post, I am not normally someone who strikes out like this - I, like all of you, am human. And I can only tolerate so much BS, especially from 'anonymous' folks who take quotes out of context (in other words, lie) to further their particular brand of fanaticism(sp?)...which happens to include using force on others - at least my own 'fanatic' ideas do not involve the coercion of others.
end rant,
michael, the un-anonymous
12:07 AM
I think Mike Lorrey is BITTER that his home town went from quiet and quaint to what it is today. That doesn't mean he has to RUIN all of NH. Zoning will help Grafton STOP his group from taking over,it is the only thing to stop the FTP. Well, once their community is underway the feds will stop them, they always do.The Land Conservation group can help Grafton once Benson is out of office, only 4 or 5 months..not long at all.
2:34 PM
You must not know the plans of the FTP.They would ultimately like to turn Grafton into a city. Want to see that part of the yahoo group? Or do you remember now? I am not in the land conservation group,so I know about Grafton.I live here. I want it to stay this way. FTP men want to DEVELOP as much of Grafton as they can buy. They want no zoning so no one can get in their way. You have a lot of growing up to do,you are so young still..
7:13 AM
Hey young man Curtis- The whole idea of the FTP/FSP is to RECRUIT way more than just 200, that is just their starting number. Want proof of that also? Grafton is to be the new "plymouth rock", for the whole FSP, not just the FTP. The FTP just got the ball rolling because the precious FSP wants their non profit stat. so bad they will turn their back on people that helped get this radical militant migratory voting block off the ground.
7:21 AM
Thanks Curtis. You have won me over. I am done posting here. I no longer want to conserve land in Grafton. I no longer mean anything I previously posted.You are right about everything. You are wise in your young age. I am jealous of you.
8:42 AM
I think Curtis may be the next Jason P Sorens!
3:41 PM
I did mean status. Thank you. I am not very smart. I thought I told you that you convinced me that you are right about everything you have ever written on this blog. How many times can I say it? Hey everyone - Curtis is right. Curtis is all of that. He is the man.
3:42 PM
>Are they militant because they would like to keep their second amendment rights in tact?
Curtis, please explain to me what the second ammendment is all about. You seem to know.
If I remeber correctly, it is written the "right to bear arms". Many who claim to be pro-2nd like to twist that to the right to bear "firearms" or "small arms". That is not what it says. So do these 'so called' free towners believe they have the right to WMDs? WMDs are arms, and the second clearly gives the right to bear arms. Or do Free Towners believe in the restriction of the second ammendment?
4:20 PM
mil·i·tant ( P ) Pronunciation Key (ml-tnt)
adj.
Fighting or warring.
Having a combative character; aggressive, especially in the service of a cause: a militant political activist.
n.
A fighting, warring, or aggressive person or party.
4:26 PM
No, we have the same def. Look at the second entry in Webster's:
http://www.m-w.com/cgi-bin/dictionary?book=Dictionary&va=militantMain Entry: mil·i·tant
Function: adjective
1 : engaged in warfare or combat : FIGHTING
2 : aggressively active (as in a cause) : COMBATIVE [militant conservationists] [a militant attitude]
synonym see AGGRESSIVE- militant noun
- mil·i·tant·ly adverb
- mil·i·tant·ness noun
8:22 AM
mike lorrey - you are wrong on your blog. the grafton focus town meeting was called in early may. it was planned before this blog and the news articles. how do you know the meeting had mostly democrats? you are wrong. i want to know why you are spreading these lies? some at the meeting were from out of town and some democrats were at the meeting. so?? that letter was received the day before the meeting. you don't think people in town would have known about the meeting without the letter? the concord monitor ran a story pointing out negative aspects about the fsp and ftp one week before the meeting, in that article the focus meeting was mentioned. the grafton focus meeting WAS REPRESENTATIVE of grafton and NH. mikey??
8:28 AM
>...WMDs are not arms as the term would have been used back in the eighteenth century.
>It states that, since this right already exists, the government shall not infringe upon it.
So you claim the second(or the right the second talks about) only covers 18th century arms, or weapons? If not, what exactly does it cover? Now the problem becomes where to draw the line if we are not longer allowed to use the current definition of 'arms'. Maybe the 2nd need to be revised.
>Clearly a Nuclear Warhead or other WMDs are not defensive weapons.
I did not see anything about only defensive weapons in the 2nd. Our country claims our nukes and WMDs are defensive. So does every other country that has them. They don't call it the 'Department of Defense' for nothing. Defending our way of life. Get that money girl!
>Arms, since used in conjunction with the militia, are for defensive purposes.
Why do arms used in conjuction with the militia have to be for defensive purposes? My understanding of a militia is that it can be offensive or defensive.
Main Entry: mi·li·tiaFunction: noun
Etymology: Latin, military service, from milit-, miles
1 a : a part of the organized armed forces of a country liable to call only in emergency b : a body of citizens organized for military service
2 : the whole body of able-bodied male citizens declared by law as being subject to call to military service
>What did the rebels win the revolutionary war with? Small Arms.
The rebels used just about the same weapons as the brits. They used small arms, ships, cannons... Anything available at the time they could use to kill the enemy. I am not aware of restriction on weapons at the time, are you?
8:55 AM
The money girl is at the strip club. Take it all girl!
12:42 PM
>It is aggressive, not aggressively active, in mine.
Aggressive will work for me. Nothing to do with guns.
12:43 PM
>The Government lies, constantly, over and over again.
Then why do you keep refering to a government document? Did the government tell the truth back in the day? If so, when did government start the lies?
>I would seriously like to know where you got the idea that a militia is an offensive weapon? That is what an army is for.
A militia IS an army. Any army can be defensive or offensive. I never made the claim that the militia is an offensive weapon. That is like saying a gun is a defensive weapon. That may be true, but it can also be offensive. It all depends who is commanding it.
mi·li·tian.
An army composed of ordinary citizens rather than professional soldiers.
A military force that is not part of a regular army and is subject to call for service in an emergency.
The whole body of physically fit civilians eligible by law for military service.
1:02 PM
When have WMDs and other things meant solely for murder become arms?They always have been. What do you think war is?
I stated that certain arms were not of the variety that would have been considered arms in the eighteenth century.If you know what would be considered arms in the eighteenth century, please tell me. That is the info I want you to give me. That will clear everything up.
These are strictly military supplies, and therefore, excluded from anything to do with the Second Amendment. They are armament. Arms are protection against danger. Again, they are defensively implied. I would, personally, draw the line at purely offensive weapons i.e. WMDs. Since, small arms can be realistically implied to be for defense, they are certainly on my side of the line.Arms is short for armaments. If military supplies are excluded from anything to do with the 2nd, does that mean military surplus weapons and ammo is not covered? Only 'sporting defense rifle' versions and hunting/defense ammo?
Where would you draw the line?On what the 2nd covers? If I have go by what it says, it says arms. That would include all weapons. No line. Unless someone wants to change it. Or we just go with 18th cent. arms. Or you draw the line by what you think people should be allowed to have, and ignore the wording.
Or do you mean what do I think should be legal weapons for individuals?
You still seem to be of the mindset that the right is given. It is inherent. You and I were born to it.I was born with a right arm. Inherent in all humans? In all animals? An inhrent right to small arms? Mine are normal sized.
Wait, are you not forgetting the Nukes? Are you proposing that people not be allowed to own ships because they are some sort of dangerous weapon? What weapons did the militia use?I did not forget nukes, they did not have them. I did not say anything about what I believe should be legal or not, and did not propose anything about ships. Like I said, the militia used any weapon they could use, including war ships, cannons, swords, muskets....no restrictions.
Our discussion revolved around the second amendment, hence the references to the constitution.Umm, first you tried to say the word 'militant' had something to do with guns and the 2nd. Then you said the right refered to in the 2nd is inherent. Is that one of those 'God given rights'? I can see how the right to self defense is inherent, but not the right to bear arms. What came first, the right or the arms? Someone/thing has to be able to take that 'inherent thing' from you to then give it to you as a right.
The lying started circa 1787.Do you believe this started out of the blue? Do you think the Articles of Confederation were great?
>Anonymous wrote
>I never made the claim that the militia is an offensive weapon.
Then, might I suggest you use a pseudonym. Some other anonymous claimed they could be used offensively or defensively. If you have a pseudonym it is easier for me to keep your views in order so you do not seem to be contradicting yourself.No, same anonymous. I never made the claim a militia is a weapon or that it is offensive. You made the claim that I made that claim. I say a militia is just like a weapon as far offense/defense goes. It is not defensive or offensive, but what it is used for can be/is. It depends how it is used. You are the one making a claim that a militia is defensive only.
The constitution dictates under what circumstances a militia is to be used. These circumstances are as follows.
(1) To execute the laws of the Union
(2) To suppress insurrections
(3) To repel invasionsI would say only (3) is clearly defensive. I think (1) and (2) could be defensive or offensive.
This really isn't the right place for this 2nd stuff.
6:44 PM
>I think war is a gross miscarriage of human pride? What do you think war is?
I think war is a gross miscarriarge of human greed.
8:56 AM
>Since we are in a game of semantics in this instance I offer this, once again, from my trusty desktop dictionary.
>Arm v. To furnish with protection against danger.
-----------
Try again. That is a verb. We are talking about arms as a noun. Maybe we shold look at the root of the word arms:
http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=arms[From Middle English armes, weapons, from Old French, pl. of arme, weapon, from Latin arma, weapons; see ar- in Indo-European Roots. V., from Middle English armen from Old French armer, from Latin armre, from arma.]
9:01 AM
>When did you come to the conclusion that the 2nd amendment could be construed this way? You did not seem to think that was so the other day when you claimed it was twisting the amendment to include firearms.
The first time I read it. It is clear what it says. I did not have to construe, just read. My claim was that pro-gun people try to say the 2nd only covers small arms or firearms. I claim it does include the right to bear all arms, including firearms. It does not say "right to bear firearms". I do not think I have not said what I believe should be legal regarding weapons.
I do have to admit, this is the first time I have heard the 'only for defense' argument regarding the 2nd and a militia. Is that the libertraian party line?
9:18 AM
>If their were a way to target Chemical, Biological or Nuclear weapons to effect one person I would no longer put them in a category with WMDs, since they could then be used in defense without murdering the innocent and not cause mass destruction.
So, it seems you are more concerned with size and targeting, not the weapons. I guess you would not consider some bio and chem weapons WMDs. There are ways to target one person with WMDs.
Ok, I can make a small grenade with poison gas. If I put a gas mask on, and set it off in my house when a bad guy comes in, and I kill just him, is my chemical weapon a WMD?
If I have a blowgun with a biological weapon dart that will only kill the person it hits, is that OK?
Should I be able to put arsnic in my hollow point bullets to 'extra defend' my self? I can aim my guns.
I can fill a squirtgun with a blister agent. I can target one person with my super soaker. Is this OK with you?
9:26 AM
>What does a person's right to self defense entail?
http://www.lectlaw.com/def/d030.htmUse of force is justified when a person reasonably believes that it is necessary for the defense of oneself or another against the immediate use of unlawful force. However, a person must use no more force than appears reasonably necessary in the circumstances.You can defend you life by any means available. If you do not, you die. That does not mean you can just go out and attack somebody.
9:40 AM
Curtis - how long have you been an honorary member of the FTP? Do you speak for them now? How do you know which ideas were "floated" around by which person? I know more than one person floated around the idea to make Grafton the plymouth rock for FTP/FSP people moving to NH. Curtis, are you being misled? I am sure you are not,right? no way! I am talking about Grafton and NH being targeted by the FTP/FSP. Please don't come right at me with an essay form answer. I am not here to debate. I am here to figure out what will happen when the FSP/FTP "get their way". If you can't understand this because of a word spelled wrong or bad grammar, I understand.
11:49 AM
Do you think the Government has a right to possess weapons that kill blindly? Do you think the Government has a right to kill? If you answered yes, why do you feel the government has rights? You seem to be bothered by the keeping part, but how do you feel about the bearing part? This means people get to walk around packing with no regulation. This is my favorite part of it. Also, just name your alternate venue and I will remove my off topic posts because they are very off topic and are slowing down the speed at which this page loads. If you wish, we could also just call it quits at this juncture. It is up to you.I do not think Governments have rights. I do not think anyone/anything has the right to produce/buy/sell/trade/posses technology that can wipe out all known life.
Would you like to possess WMDs? Why was the issue on your mind? Are you looking for a person to sell you some WMDs?I would not want anything called a weapon of mass destruction, unless of course I could make some money from them. It all about the money. If the free towners/staters take over, maybe I will make and sell them for others who wish to use that inherent right. I love the free market:) The issue is on my mind because you tried to say 'militant' had something to do with guns and the 2nd, and somehow that is what some Grafton residents are worried about. So I wanted to figure out what you think the 2nd is all about. You brought up the 2nd.
You seem to be bothered by the keeping part, but how do you feel about the bearing part? This means people get to walk around packing with no regulation.Why do you keep assuming you know how I feel about keeping and bearing arms? Do you think I am a democrat\socialist? I keep getting the feeling you are buying the crap put out by the free towners/staters. Don't believe everything they tell you. They keep saying it is only dems. that are agianst them. That is just funny. Are you one of 'them'?
Not bothered by the keeping or bearing of firearms. I love my guns. I play with my guns. When they come out, it's time for fun. I keep a Glock nine on my waistline. I am all about concealed carry(for handguns). Bad guys like suprises. I do think there needs to be some regulations regarding arms.
I would be concerend if my next door neighbor had a WMD micro bussiness in his basement or on his front lawn, or walked around with a suitcase nuke straped to his back, with a deadman switch in his hand. I think I would move out of the free town at that point.
Also, just name your alternate venue and I will remove my off topic posts because they are very off topic and are slowing down the speed at which this page loads. If you wish, we could also just call it quits at this juncture. It is up to you.I don't want you to remove anything.
A shooting range would probably be the right venue. Where is that in Grafton? 4th of July gun shoot? The 4th of July is this weekend in Grafton, right? Or a gun board (falfiles.com, ak-47.net, ar15.com, glocktalk.com). I guess you can pick the gun board by the guns you like. And of course, most of the people there will be on your side, and will say 'arms' in the 2nd means 'small arms'. That is how they roll. I do not recommend ak-47.net, but if you like AKs, ar15.com has a good AK section at ak47.net. Oh, the slow internet in grafton may put a damper on that. Those sites tend to be bandwith hogs. I have yet to connect in Grafton on dial-up over 28K. We are going to have to fix that.
You should also consider adding to the post on the front page the root source, as far as it can be traced, to the Zoning Question. It was the Grafton Focus Vol. 3 No. 6. I know it was cut out in the reply, but it would be good for accuracy's sake.I can trace it back to the Foucus meeting on June 19th. But, you are quoting the Focus Vol. 3 No. 6, so you are right.
As far as 'arms' go, I think weapons not defensive or offensive by nature. It all depends on the use/situaltion. I do not think weapons can be classifed as offensive or defensive. If Saddam had WMDs and he used them on our troops as they invaded Iraq, would that have been self defense?
Perhaps they would not think of items that killed indiscriminately as arms. Your thoughts? Do you consider a wild animal as arms?I am lost here. My glock is not an arm if I use it to kill indiscriminately? I think my glock will be an 'arm' no matter how I use it. I do not consider wild animals as arms or weapons. I suppose you could use some that way. Like putting a poisonous snake in someones sleeping bag. Some Trained animal can be considered an 'arm' or weapon. Think attack/watch dog. I hope to get one of those soon. Get 'um Buck!
Feel free to respond, but I am probalby done with this topic here. If you would like to continue, I suggest we take it somewhere else. Darn, I missed high noon. Let me know where.
12:55 PM
Grafton' 4th of July is celebrated this weekend, cheaper fireworks. signs up all around town.
2:14 PM
>That is a lie, you claimed to already know what will happen, and that you had proof.
Someone claimed to know the future and had proof? I want to see the proof too.
4:39 PM
"Could YOU successfully urbanize this town? If so, please tell me how." - Curtis
I think urbanizing Grafton in the way described in the book The Human Scale by Kirkpatrick Sale would be possible and beneficial. The current residents could fix the recent local recession by thenselves if they actually had a real community and weren't ignorant sheep but 500 adult capitalist laborers and consumers couldn't possibly hurt (except by consuming the natural world ofcourse - humans should only be allowed to live if it serves the purposes of the nature park's keepers).
1:53 AM
Holy crap! This transhumanist stuff is nuts. Lorrey has been pumping the Grafton idea to transhumanist. How come FSP never talks about the transhumanist beliefs they have? Maybe all don't, but Lorrey does and maybe Sorens? I bet CONdon is also a tranhumanist. It gets weirder and weirder!
8:11 AM
Hey Grafton shitbags. THE PLAN IS TO TAKE YOU OVER BY FORCE! Don't get confused. I'm an FSP member and we talk about it all the time. We also formulate stories to spoon-feed this blog and twist your little hillbilly minds into our way of thinking. Haha, you are puppets.
You haven't had an original complaint or issue, that has not been planted by an FSP representative since the first week of inception. The funny thing is, I can tell you this now, and still be in control of you by the end of the day. The lights are a little dim in Grafton, and they will soon go out!
There is no plan to move to Grafton. Do you understand that shitbags?? Understand, when I say "shitbags" I'm talking about everyone in NH, not just Grafton. The plan is to TAKE OVER, migration is not necessary, who the fuck would live in Grafton on purpose anyway? BTW, NH wasn't chosen because it is the most " free state" it was chosen because the people who occupy it are generally the most ignorant residents that occupy any state and they are as defenseless as school girls when it comes to politics. You are completly predictable with every action you take. This blog is all you can do to defend yourselves against the impending take over?? That is why Grafton was chosen. Do you think the same response would be offered out west??? Not a chance, they would have skinned us alive for throwing Zack at them, but you people are great, you take it right in the ass and ask for more. Zack was great wasn't he?? I don't think anyone could have done it better. You responded with the usual predictability, just like what was planned. Haha, boy, it was beautiful!
Grafton will be TAKEN OVER! don't you worry about that. The snare has already been tripped by your very own top official. It's all over but the publicity for the next endeavor. This will go down in history as one of the most profound political coups in America's history, and ya'll git to be a part of it, so, look alive! Everyone is watching.
8:15 PM
Hey Grafton shitbags. THE PLAN IS TO TAKE YOU OVER BY FORCE! Don't get confused. I'm an FSP member and we talk about it all the time. We also formulate stories to spoon-feed this blog and twist your little hillbilly minds into our way of thinking. Haha, you are puppets.
You haven't had an original complaint or issue, that has not been planted by an FSP representative since the first week of inception. The funny thing is, I can tell you this now, and still be in control of you by the end of the day. The lights are a little dim in Grafton, and they will soon go out!
There is no plan to move to Grafton. Do you understand that shitbags?? Understand, when I say "shitbags" I'm talking about everyone in NH, not just Grafton. The plan is to TAKE OVER, migration is not necessary, who the fuck would live in Grafton on purpose anyway? BTW, NH wasn't chosen because it is the most " free state" it was chosen because the people who occupy it are generally the most ignorant residents that occupy any state and they are as defenseless as school girls when it comes to politics. You are completly predictable with every action you take. This blog is all you can do to defend yourselves against the impending take over?? That is why Grafton was chosen. Do you think the same response would be offered out west??? Not a chance, they would have skinned us alive for throwing Zack at them, but you people are great, you take it right in the ass and ask for more. Zack was great wasn't he?? I don't think anyone could have done it better. You responded with the usual predictability, just like what was planned. Haha, boy, it was beautiful!
Grafton will be TAKEN OVER! don't you worry about that. The snare has already been tripped by your very own top official. It's all over but the publicity for the next endeavor. This will go down in history as one of the most profound political coups in America's history, and ya'll git to be a part of it, so, look alive! Everyone is watching.
9:45 PM
>hillbilly
I told you I like the term 'country boy' better. But, whatever.
12:46 PM
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11:35 PM
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