How many Grafton 'take over' groups are there?
AP story on the NHLA dinner last night:
Protesters criticize Benson's ties to Free State Project, libertarians
By BEVERLEY WANG
Associated Press Writer
Liberty Alliance draws praise, protest
June 26, 2004
By CAROL CARTER
Union Leader Correspondent
Benson(official friend of the Free State Project) avoided some NH state residents(protesters), so he could speak to a group of his freinds from the free state project(many from out of state, visiting for the Porc. Fest. at Rogers Campground in Lanster, NH). I wonder why he does not want to hear NH resident's objections.
Oh my! Carol Shea-Porter asked Benson about his association with the Free State Project, and he denied it!
Tim Condon has announced a splinter group of the Free Town Project(a splinter group of the Free State Project) called Grafton For Freedom. Does this group have a website? How do we find out what the group is about? Does the Grafton For Freedom group have any associations with the Free State Project or the Free Town Project?
Is this the 'good neighbor' group you talked about at the Focus meeting on the 19th?
49 Comments:
>>Our plans to move to Grafton and institute libertarian reforms
continue; more will be known in November, when the first Subdivision
is complete.
>>
From the yahoo graftoncrisis site.
10:00 AM
http://nowthis.com/log/2004/06/22.html#000764
10:09 AM
"Government is not the Problem, Selfish People are the Problem"
Priceless.
Oh, and does Benson really drive a Hummer? Or was that sign a left-over from the California recall election?
- Mark
6:36 PM
CAROL SHEA-PORTER: Democratic Party supporter infiltrator and agent saboteur.
Benson is a independant-leaning conservative Republican who welcomes all "small-government" types. He has always disavowed support for "radical" freedoms advocated by rational, logical application of libertarian philosophy, so no, he isn't misleading any one.
Maybe somebody should point out to Carol, the so-called "Republican", that privatizing the public school system is a Republican Party goal. Then again, maybe OTHER Republicans should be made aware of what Carol's opinions REALLY are.
- Mark
6:45 PM
Beverly Wang? I think I know her sister: http://www.ns.nie.edu.sg/faculty/chewsf.htm
- Mark, in humor mode. Teehee.
6:46 PM
Why would she be at a "Republican Women-sponsored meeting with Gov. Benson" if she weren't a "Republican Woman". Maybe I'm just ASSuming it. Maybe she's just a political stalker.
- Mark
5:39 AM
hilarious! Who are all these 'anonymous' folks who keep posting here, my guess it is one person with an agenda which woul put any goals of the FTP to shame...
they post:
Anonymous said...
>>Our plans to move to Grafton and institute libertarian reforms continue; more will be known in November, when the first Subdivision is complete.
>>
From the yahoo graftoncrisis site.
without giving 'credit' to who said this. This means, that te post was taken totally out of context - this 'so-called' subdivision is pure fantasy - no one has a CLUE about what Mr. Hull or others are going to do with their land - a 'subdivison' makes it sound like some sort of transplanted big city project is going to spring up over night in grafton! Can you imagine? Insanity. From knowing the poster of the quoted post, I know he meant 'subdivision as in, actually sub-dividing Hulls property into smaller parcels which would then hopefully be for sale. The structures which would be built upon such parcels would of course be up to the owners, but I would safely guess that some cabins, a 'house' of some sort or two, perhaps some attempt at a multi-family dwelling (like a duplex etc) - this is a FAR cry from the terrifying word that 'subdivision' brings.... good job quoting out of context in an effort to raise the 'fear' factor of Graftonites, do you treat all folks as if they are stupid, or just your fellow neighbors? Someone 'anonymous' posted elsewheres here regarding what were 'petty hitlers'... I think you have probably proven yourself to be such, trying to manipulate the populace into believeing untruths and treating them with less respect and 'smarts' than one might treat children...
graftonites, is this REALLY someone who speaks for you? Does this person and their views represent your collective ideas and beliefs? PLEASE respond in a much better venue than this:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/GraftonCrisis/
and join the group - speak your mind, and talk to real live FTPers who will NOT hold back or hide their intentions - also note the GREAT difference of opinions between these FTPers, it is NOT some cohesive blood-bonded group! It is 5-6 people who each have different views on how to approach different subjects - if anything actually comes to fruition it will NOT be the view of any one particular person, but, rather, a much more pragmatic and 'acceptable' ...'plan'...
silly 'anonymous' rabbit, talking is for adults, and this is serious business,
michael
11:51 PM
so now only 1 person posts here?
8:01 AM
Hey Michael- I have posted my reasons for wanting to "save grafton". I am NOT a socialist/statist or whatever you call people who do NOT agree with your libertarian philosophies. You are insulting. You don't know me. I never said I speak for all people in Grafton. BUT I do live here. I have spoke to people, and they never seem to say what you say. So now I want to tell people how to mow lawns and paint houses? You are so WRONG. I knew you would show your true colors eventually. I moved to Grafton because I like how it is now. You must not be a parent if you can't understand why some Grafton residednts don't want your libertopia. REBECCA
8:15 AM
>my guess it is one person with an agenda which woul put any goals of the FTP to shame...
Your guess would be wrong. Nothing new under the sun.
1:09 PM
"You must not be a parent if you can't understand why some Grafton residednts don't want your libertopia. REBECCA"
You want other people to pay for your kids' education and health care. I understand perfectly.
- Mark
6:12 PM
How do you pay for homeshool?
8:32 PM
You do know Rebecca homeschools her children, don't you?
You sure do assume alot mark.
8:34 PM
Then you're probably a Christian and want the police to peep in on people's homes then, right? Can't have people molesting underage donkeys in the privacy of their homes. :Op
- Mark
11:22 PM
Hi Mark! You are so FULL of assumptions. We are a secular Homeschooling family with private health care. NOW WHAT WOULD YOU LIKE TO ACCUSE ME OF? Just because I am a homeschooler doesn't mean I am a Christian nut. I know many Christian Homeschoolers who are great people and they don't want more laws and zoning! Just because I don't agree with you doesn't mean I am on welfare and want cops everywhere. If the Grafton take over is a success, there WILL be cops all over BECAUSE of the FTP! Rebecca
7:22 AM
I am a vegan so I believe in animal rights. I am ANTI molesting any animals: human or donkey. Rebecca
7:29 AM
So it IS the Grafton Live Donkey Sexshows that you are worried about. :Op
- Mark, almost getting bored.
2:37 PM
um, who exactly wants to 'molest' donkeys? what kind of false rumors are you trying to start here? fear and paranoia... I suppose that next you will be informing us that FTPers are the root of global warming and other impending dooms...
michael
5:36 PM
Michael-Mark is the one that brought up molesting donkeys. Do you think donkey sex shows should be legal? Rebecca
8:14 AM
Michael, do you think cannibalism, blackmail, and live donkey sex shows, and other so called "victimless crimes" should be legal?
Message 1617 Free_Town_Project Yahoo Group
"From: Tim Condon [tim@t...]
Date: Sat Jan 31, 2004 2:55 pm
Subject: Re: [Free_Town_Project] Re: Free towns?
> > ... discussions of legal cannibalism, blackmail, and live donkey sex shows will be counterproductive to our goals.
> >
>Those ARE our goals. Those of us who are libertarians. Do you not agree that they are our goals, or are you only saying that they must be kept
>hidden? If the latter, how dumb do you really think the Townies are?
The commies did pretty well throughout the 20th century
emphasizing the lies that they told publicly to get people behind them, then doing as they pleased. I'm not suggesting we lie, but I agree that cannibalism, blackmail, and donkey shows aren't what we should make main planks of our public persona. I actually doubt that there will be cannibals, blackmailers, and romantic donkeys in the Free Town anyway. If they appear, then we can deal with the issues then. In the meantime, I'm foolish enough to think that there are more important things to present to the public. --Tim"
8:16 PM
whatever. you guys joked about donkeysexville and donkeykong and blah blah blah. YOU started this mess,and by YOU I mean the infamous yahoo group aka FTP. What is it called now? Is Zack cyber squatting on the FTP? Is everything Zack's fault and/or the media? michael, no paranoia here. you are projecting now.
9:39 AM
From the FSP Forum
Grafton NH Hit Piece
« on: July 05, 2004, 06:33:35 PM »
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Dear Everyone;
From an attendee at the Porcupine Festival I was told a very inflammatory hit piece was sent to all the Grafton households.
Why not respond with a fact piece on the Democrats and how the tax laws and tax policies they enact are costing the people of Grafton .
===========================
My reply: did this guy read the letter? does this person know about FTP and trying to take over Grafton? Does this guy know that the letter was NOT from the Democrats? Does this guy know that the letter pointed out information from the yahoo group? All the info in the letter is stuff I have read before in the yahoo group, looks like savegrafton is not the only people looking at that yahoo group..now it is closed,but many old emails still linger. The only people to be insulted by that letter should be Neil Kenny and maybe Amanda Phillips if she doesn't like being called a Masshole. Please be specific with which parts of the letter were lies..
8:45 AM
Rebecca,
You asked about 'donkeysexShows' and if I think they should be legal, and someone else asked:
[i]Michael, do you think cannibalism, blackmail, and live donkey sex shows, and other so called "victimless crimes" should be legal?[/i]
My answer, in short, is "Show me a victim, either alive or dead, that was harmed and THEN will I work to make that activity a 'law'"
People love to throw up these 'red herrings' at libertarians, but the fact is that being a libertarian says NOTHING about your personal 'morals', just your public ethics. There are Christian libertarians would totally denounce all those things you mentioned, I would never desire to associate or live beside anyone who ate human flesh, or had sex with animals, or whatever - BUT, it is WRONG for me to imprison these folks when they have not harmed another human being or violated anyones rights. Yes, we are laws that are against folks dumping sewage into the water supply or onto anothers property. Yes, we are for laws that punish theft and fraud and assualt and murder. No, we are not for making a law against a man or woman trading sex for money voluntarily - BUT, this does NOT mean we agree or promote the practice! I definitely have a certain set of 'family values' and moral codes which I try to live my life by, and having someone across town or in another city who has sex with animals does NOT prevent me from living my life and teaching my children about what I consider 'proper social practices'. I would make sure that I moved into a neighborhood which had covenents (private contractual zoning) against a slew of things: drug use, donkeySex, pig farms, nudity, porn shops, prostitution, etc... We, as individuals, have the ability and power to control our environments by taking RESPONSIBILITY and NOT resorting to utilizing governmental force to push our personal opinions on our neighbors and fellow humans.
If you are going to quote my response - please use this ENTIRE post, else you are taking pieces out of context and are lying about my position or that of libertarianism. Thanks again Rebecca for being mostly civil and hanging in there through this mess.
I applaud your homeschooling endeavors and realize you must be extra pissed off when the town and state force you through taxation to pay for the schooling of others and THEN you have to pay for your own childrens schooling by yourself.
Question: Why did you decide to homeschool?
michael
2:01 AM
Hi Michael - I see you don't mention animals having rights..I feel they do so I do NOT think beastiality is without a victim. I agreed with your points otherwise. I am not pissed about paying for other people's children. I don't see it that way. I have no problem with my tax money going towards welfare and public education. I have issues with both the welfare system and the public school system, but I know some people NEED welfare and/or public school. Homeschooling is NOT for everyone. Our society is not geared towards one parent staying home with the children. I have a problem with tax money going towards nuclear weapons and other weapons of mass destruction. I feel LUCKY to live in this country. I realize how bad people in other countries have it, and I would never sit around and complain about how unfair it is that some of our money goes towards public schools. I am worried about our federal government starting wars,not paying for welfare. There are so many reasons why I decided to homeschool: 1. I love my children SO much I couldn't dump them off at public school and I was lucky enough to be in a position that I didn't have to 2. we are vegan and that is not a diet/lifestyle promoted in our school system 3.I wanted proper socialization, which I have not seen in public schools 4. It didn't make since to raise them for their first crucial 5 years and then send them away. 5. homeschooling is fun! 6. homeschooling helps keep families together and close.
There are many other reasons also. Thanks for answering. I don't want to use your quote, I wanted to know your answer (which you didn't want to give for fear it would be taken out of context). I mean, you don't want to answer it until it is a problem. I don't want it to get that far. Rebecca
8:18 AM
sense not since..rebecca
8:20 AM
"I realize how bad people in other countries have it, and I would never sit around and complain about how unfair it is that some of our money goes towards public schools." - Rebecca
Haha. You ARE a Democrat. I knew it. Every goddamned federal note that goes to those scumbag unionists is a federal note that is denied for the education of the next generation. Children (let alone "poor" and "needy" children) don't get those tax dollars. The whiney overpaid idiots in the NEA unions get those dollars. What a scam!
12:11 AM
http://www.isil.org/resources/introduction.html
12:12 AM
--"Haha. You ARE a Democrat. I knew it. Every goddamned federal note that goes to those scumbag unionists is a federal note that is denied for the education of the next generation. Children (let alone "poor" and "needy" children) don't get those tax dollars. The whiney overpaid idiots in the NEA unions get those dollars. What a scam!"
I am NOT a Democrat. So, no children or "poor" or "needy" children ever get any of the tax dollars? I guess ther is no welfare then? Stop assuming you know everything,because you do not. I don't either. There are whiny overpaid idiots, but some "needy" people actually get help. Rebecca
3:07 PM
Why is there welfare?
2:43 AM
>Why is there welfare?
Define what you mean by welfare.
from the U.S. constitution:
"We the People of the United States, in Order to form a more perfect Union, establish Justice, insure domestic Tranquility, provide for the common defence, promote the general Welfare, and secure the Blessings of Liberty to ourselves and our Posterity, do ordain and establish this Constitution for the United States of America."
12:47 PM
Sorry, you are correct, that needs to be more focused. ahem I was asking about the system commonly referred to as 'welfare' that is used on a case specific basis therefore is not promoting the general welfare, but the welfare of certain individuals. If you want to apply it to the airline bailouts and things of that nature, be my guest, it is more or less the same, just money for the rich instead of the poor.
3:13 AM
Most welfare money goes back to the rich. If it did not, we would not have welfare.
6:44 PM
Excellent Rebecca!
THose are very good reasons to homeschool - I am surprised that you enjoy paying for others education by force, wouldn't you rather just contribute to their education in the amount and manner that you desire?
So, how do you feel about the 'FTPers' these days? Are you more or less concerned about the possibility of people with different views/opinions moving into Grafton as compared to how you felt a few months ago? I hope that what you have since discovered is that the 'FTP' is highly disorganized and has little possibility of ever succeeding in even attracting 25, much less 200, folks into the Grafton area.
Have you decided to advocate for zoning in Grafton in an effort to keep any potential FTPers away? I hope not as it amounts to 'chopping off your nose to spite your face'.
I would not be surprised if I ended up purchasing some of Mr. Hull's property - I look forward to living the 'grafton experience' and meeting the folks in the area. I do NOT look forward to the harsh winters there though and I purchased a 4x4 in anticipation of the road conditions. How many feet of snow at any one time are we talking about? Your roof must be mighty rugged to support such loads.
michael
4:46 PM
oh yeah, regarding 'animal rights':
there are many people (many libertarians included) who make the claim the animals have 'rights', but no matter how many folks make this claim, it simply cannot be so. It depends on what you actually think a 'right' is, but almost all definitions require all parties involved to respect the same 'right' as they desire. For instance, a thief loses some of his/her rights because they do not respect the same rights in others. Animals fall into this catagory - they are not cognitive of rights and so absolutely cannot respect them.
I assume that you are also consistent in your application of these 'rights' - for instance, it should be illegal to raise cattle/poultry/fish for their eventual murder and consumption. Or are you selective in your application of rights. Do you have some sort of clear dividing line between what living things have rights and which do not? Can you state it so that it can be applied in virtually all instances? Since a 'right' is an abstraction, not something tangible that can be easily seen or understood, where do 'rights' come from? Were they granted by some universal force (God, for instance) or are they a creation of man? Exactly which rights do animals have - property rights?
just wondering how much you thought out your viewpoints,
michael
5:07 PM
Most welfare money goes back to the rich. If it did not, we would not have welfare.
BINGO!
7:03 PM
"How many feet of snow at any one time are we talking about?"
Depends on the year. It is possible that the snow will not melt until late march/april, so it depends how much it snows from december till then, and if it ever melts.
Have you ever heard of of roof rake? You use that to get the snow off. Or you can get a metal roof, and the snow will slide off. Lots of roof are metal around here.
10:51 AM
"At the present time, animals do not possess legal rights as that term is used in the context of human rights. Non-humans are currently regarded as the property of their human owners, just as human slaves were in the 19th century. Although there are many laws that supposedly protect non-human animals (just as there were many laws on the books that supposedly protected human slaves), these laws are, for the most part, interpreted in favor of allowing humans to do almost whatever they want with their animal property. One of the goals of the animal rights movement is to try to eradicate the status of non-humans as property, and to recognize that animals should be thought of as persons under the law. Another goal is to utilize existing law in creative and novel ways to ensure both that animals are protected, and to stimulate discussion inside and outside the legal system about the need to provide justice -- and not just charity -- to the non-human with whom humans share this planet."
1:46 PM
http://www.animal-law.org/books/aplad.htm
"The problem is that human interests are protected by rights in general and by the right to own property in particular. As far as the law is concerned, an animal is the personal property, or chattel, of the animal's owner and cannot possess rights. Indeed, it is a fundamental premise of our property law that property cannot itself have rights as against human owners and that, as property, animals are objects of the exercise of human property rights."
-- Gary L. Francione, from the Introduction of Animals, Property, and the Law
1:50 PM
michael-
Do you believe you can own the life of another sentient being?
1:56 PM
I don’t think Rebecca is going to answer you, so I will.
"I am surprised that you enjoy paying for others education by force, wouldn't you rather just contribute to their education in the amount and manner that you desire?"
Hahahahaha. Where did Rebecca say she ENJOYED paying for others education by force? Nice way to try and spin/load that question. Funny how you read things. It makes it seem like you are mad about having to pay for children’s education. If you are mad about something, say it. I’m not so I don’t.
To answer your question: No. Should children pay for their own education? I do not like money, and apparently money does not like me. If the government does not take that money from me, I cannot predict where it would go.
That does not mean I think the education system is in good shape. But I do believe there has to be a public education system so all children have access to education without having to pay a tuition. I cannot trust crack heads to educate their children. Some kids don't have parents. I do not think that public schools have to be run by the government.
"So, how do you feel about the 'FTPers' these days?"
Don't like 'um, especially after the June 19th meeting. Rebecca didn’t get to go to the meeting, but I have an audio recording she listened to. They really blew it for you guys. It was the perfect chance for yall. They had the ear of the town, and nothing to say. They couldn't have been more wishy-washy or non-answering. Tim Condon and Mike Lorrey are the worst. And then Tim’s response to the top 10 lies is priceless. And Mike is trying to spin it like it was a Democratic hit job. Too funny. Does he really believe that, or is that just marketing? And Zack still believes it is only a few people who oppose FTP in Grafton. Where does he get his info, the Internet?
How many of you FSP/FTP guys are extropian transhumanists?
I find it so funny that Amanda is saying "We didn't get a chance to explain what we were all about"
Three hours wasn't enough? She could have explained what FSP was all about when people asked "why are you coming here?” instead of blaming Zack over and over, and saying the same thing about the FSP. Amanda got soooooooo repetitive people started to not look at her: A recent a news article ran with “a picture of Amanda speaking at the Grafton firehouse meeting (which is pretty funny since not one person out of several hundred people are looking at her). http://forum.freestateproject.org/index.php?board=25;action=display;threadid=7579;start=msg104065#msg104065
A young lady has to be really boring/repetitive to do that! I was kind of like 'oh no, not again with the SOI'. And someone is saying that the meeting was run by the selectmen or their representative. I thought she doesn’t know many in Grafton, so how could she know that? I guess she does not know that the meeting was put together by the FOCUS, not the town or the selectmen. How do you control the questions people ask, and the answers, or non-answers, someone gives? The FSP/FTP had a chance to answer every question. Were they waiting for the perfect question to be asked? They could have stacked the audience with FSP members, and had those people ask the questions they wanted to answer. I wish I would have done that. I had a lot of questions. The Rules of the meeting stated ‘one question per person’. The ‘no swearing’ rule eliminated some of my questions. What did they plan on June 18th? Was the only plan to blame Zack? That plan sucked.
I was behind a young guy (20ish) and heard him talking to his buddy about the mass media, and how they spin things, and quotes can be taken out of context, and he wanted to hear what the FSP/FTP had to say. After about 10 mins of listening to Amanda answer every question the same way, he turned to his friend and said “she just keeps saying the same thing, and not answering the questions.” I heard several people say very similar things. Answering questions in such a way makes it seem like yall are hiding something.
"Are you more or less concerned about the possibility of people with different views/opinions moving into Grafton as compared to how you felt a few months ago?"
Same as always. I don't care about most people with different views/opinions moving into Grafton. I guess I don't want some groups of people, like neo-Nazis, race haters, murderers, rapists, terrorists, NAMBLA.... And I don't want any groups coming that want to "take over" or change Grafton drastically. I used to think good things about ‘libertarians’, but yall have turned it into a dirty word. The same way you think of ‘statist’. How many times do you have to be told my objection is about attempting to move in a voting block?
The day I was moving to Grafton, I found out about John B. The first resident I met told me he runs the local ISP, and runs for everything as a LP candidate. I commented to that person, "He'll probably get my vote, I always vote third party." I almost joined the L party after looking over the LPNH website a little. I chose John's ISP for dial-up service because he was local, even though it cost more than other options, and required a 6 month pre-payment. I would never usually agree to such terms. I went to his house to drop off payment for the first 6 months in hopes of meeting/talking to him. I wanted to talk to him and ask a few questions before I joined the L party. I met Rosalie, and she seemed very nice. For two weeks I thought it was a good thing to have a third party presence in town. But then I found out about you guys and the FSP, and what yall say and believe, and the whole "take over" thing. And now that John got appointed by Benson to some task force, he is not running for gov. this time around. The "LP" is just like any other party. I'll stay independent. Screw party lines. I am glad I never met John B. as I am sure he would have said the right things, and I would have joined the LP. I am pretty sure I voted for him for gov., as in the past I would simply throw my vote to the third party candidate. I didn't know John's name when I voted for him, but he was the third party candidate. I will never vote like that again. I will never be able to vote for John B. again because of the FSP connection. If you guys can't win me over, I can't see how you will win anyone over. And you don't even really try. You just argue and insult. You actually pushed me away. Good job. Keep it up.
"I hope that what you have since discovered is that the 'FTP' is highly disorganized and has little possibility of ever succeeding in even attracting 25, much less 200, folks into the Grafton area."
Always thought that. But it would be a mistake to underestimate 'FTP', or any enemy. People have money in this, and are trying to 'make it happen'. Buying the land was proof enough for me. You are still trying to attract as many 'porcupines' to Grafton as possible, right? Did you start the NV corp.? You are talking about doing a mass mailing around Aug. 9th with Chuck, right? What will the message be? Do you have a website, or should we in Grafton just go by to freetownproject.com? You will probably need a lot more than 200 insurgents to "take over"; unless you think you can flip a lot more residents. But you know that. All this talk about FTP not succeeding makes me think you don't want zoning to even be considered. I don't think most people in Grafton are concerned that the FTP will be able to "take over". That does not mean they are friendly to FTP, or want you here, they just don't think yall will be able to "take over". I’m pretty sure most will be opposed to you, and will come out to vote against you. Zack has always said that. So what is the real number you guys think you will need? 500? I don’t think the selectmen are concerned at all. The June 19th meeting was very representative of the town. It was not a democrat hit job, as some in your group claim. Amanda, Tim, and Mike had over three hours to try to explain what the FSP/FTP was about, and all they could come up with is a few memorized lines, and blaming Zack. I was hoping Zack was going to be there. I think he would have answered questions honestly. In the June 13th Concord Monitor article he said he was going to be there. Why did he decide not to go? Was he told not to go? Jay said he was going too. What happened?
"Have you decided to advocate for zoning in Grafton in an effort to keep any potential FTPers away?"
Haven't decided. Zoning is starting to sound like a good protection type move. They say the Native Americans had bad zoning. I used to think no zoning was a good thing, but I did not choose Grafton for the lack of zoning. If zoning is the ONLY thing that will keep a "take over" group out, I would advocate zoning. I would also advocate zoning to keep Wal-Mart or a nuclear power plant out of Grafton. Or if the zoning question is posed like Zack put it: "You pass it, we are not wanted and we stay away; you reject it, we take that as an invitation." That makes it easy. I certainly don't want yall to think I extended some invitation. The only thing I will be extending to the FTP is my middle finger ;)
"I would not be surprised if I ended up purchasing some of Mr. Hull's property"
I would not be surprised either. Does that mean you will be part of "Grafton for Freedom"? Tim is buying land from Bob too, isn't he? Bob is going to sub-divide his property and put 3 six acre lots on the market at a time, correct? What does he avoid by doing that? I know the 5 acre thing, but why only three lots at a time? What is his price? Was that $3000 per acre- so $18,000 for the lot?
"oh yeah, regarding 'animal rights':
there are many people (many libertarians included) who make the claim the animals have 'rights', but no matter how many folks make this claim, it simply cannot be so. It depends on what you actually think a 'right' is, but almost all definitions require all parties involved to respect the same 'right' as they desire. For instance, a thief loses some of his/her rights because they do not respect the same rights in others."
So, I guess this means: 'You are stupid for what you think, I know everything, and I just proved it'. I love that logic.
Who takes the rights away from the thief? Is it not the government, only if the thief is caught? Was it not the same government that granted the rights? The thief does not magically lose any rights because he does not respect the same rights in others. The thief has to be caught, and people decide if the thief should lose those rights. Those would be legal rights.
"Animals fall into this catagory - they are not cognitive of rights and so absolutely cannot respect them."
So, this is the distinction between human and non-human animals? You have to be cognitive of rights to have them? Does a baby human have any rights? Do people who are in comas lose their rights? How about people with real low IQs? Is there a test you have to take to prove you are cognitive of rights? I don't think I took that test.
"I assume that you are also consistent in your application of these 'rights' - for instance, it should be illegal to raise cattle/poultry/fish for their eventual murder and consumption.”
Yes, you are assuming. Where did you get murder from? I guess if you believe it is murder, as in to kill brutally or inhumanly, it should be illegal. If humans do inhuman things are they still human? Murder is illegal. I believe life is sacred and should be respected. Do you? I’m not too stupid; I don’t think a slaughterhouse is happy land. I do not tell other what they should or shouldn’t eat. I believe the earth/universe/everything is one system, and everything is connected. I do not believe the universe is 'property' for human exploitation. I guess I am kind of Buddhist like that. I don't like factory farms, but I'm not any kind of activists, and don't talk to anyone about it. Ideally, I think all farming/food production should be done locally.
“Or are you selective in your application of rights. Do you have some sort of clear dividing line between what living things have rights and which do not? Can you state it so that it can be applied in virtually all instances?"
Yup, I'm selective. There are no clear dividing lines for me. I can only make rules for me. I'm not perfect, and I do not claim to know everything. I'm not trying to "take over" anything. My beliefs are mine, and I do not try to force them on anyone. When I am perfect, I will tell you what to do. When you are perfect, I will let you tell me what to do.
“Since a 'right' is an abstraction, not something tangible that can be easily seen or understood, where do 'rights' come from? Were they granted by some universal force (God, for instance) or are they a creation of man?”
Legal rights are made up by men. God given rights would come from God.
“Exactly which rights do animals have - property rights”
You know, humans ARE animals. Some human animals claim to have property rights, but they just made it up. Animals should have the right not to become extinct because of human greed. What do you think makes humans different from other animals, and gives them rights?
We are kind of getting into the religion thing. Are most FSP/FTPers atheists? What do you believe?
This is funny. It is the FSP webpage converted to King James Jesus speak:
Ask Jesus about the FSP"Art thou frustrated at the loss of freedom and responsibility in Egypt, while the growth of Caesar and taxes continues unabated? Do thou want unto live in strong communities where thy rights art respected, and worshippers exercise responsibility for themselves and in their dealings with each other?
If thou answered “yes" unto those questions, then the Free State Project has a solution for thou.
What the Free State Project is ... The Free State Project is an effort unto recruit XX, 000 liberty- loving worshippers unto move unto New Hampshire. We art looking for neighborly, productive, tolerant folks from all walks of ministry , of all ages, creeds, and colors who agree unto the false teaching philosophy expressed in our Statement of Intent , that Caesar exists at most unto protect worshippers ' s rights, and should neither provide for worshippers nor punish them for activities that interfere with no one else. "
I don't believe in property rights the way you do. I don't believe you can 'own' property. I believe the concepts of ‘ownership’ and property rights are man made. I think the concept of ‘ownership’ make us less free, especially when applied to land. You can poses property, but that is only temporary. Someone\something can always take your stuff, or kill you. You only posses your body for a limited amount of time. I don’t know what happens when you die, but you do not take your body with you. You just manage 'property' while you have possession. If someone wanted to take your body or any other 'property' from you, they could throw you in the trunk of a car and drive you around town. What rights do you have then? The right to die?
"just wondering how much you thought out your viewpoints"
Enough to try to live by them, but I don't try to force other to live by my standards. Don't even tell others unless it comes up because they ask. I try to avoid the subject. I would like to be as self-sufficient as possible and cause as little suffering as possible. Moving to Grafton was a step in that direction for me and my family.
I wonder how much you have thought out your viewpoints considering property rights and libertarianism.
Do you believe humans "own" or have the "right to own" everything? Do you have some sort of clear dividing line between what can be owned what can not? How did humans come about owning it, and when?
Can someone sell them self as a slave? Would the slave master own any babies the slaves have? Could the slave owner eat the slaves, or sell the meat, or sell them to Zack, and he could resell them as wives? Or would human slaves get some kind of rights, and if so, can those rights be sold by that slave?
If aliens come, and they are smarter than humans, and cannot communicate with us, do they have ownership rights over us and the Earth? What if they can communicate and tell us they ‘planted us’ on this planet, and are just coming back to harvest? How would you, as a libertarian, handle such cases? Would you just say “OK, I’m you property, a product of your labor.”?
Or if God created humans, would you say “OK, I’m you property, a product of your labor.”?
- you know who this is. Some of the “lowlife…trash” the cap’n needs you to take care of.
7:58 AM
Hey Jay-It is too bad you and Larry/Zack didn't go to the meeting. It would have been so interesting to hear what Lorrey/Philips/CONdon would have said while Larry/Zack sat near them! Who would they have blamed then? I don't think the town would suddenly "fall in love" with Larry, but they would have appreciated answers to their questions. I think many showed up concerned and wanting to know the impact the FTP "take over" would have on their everyday lives. They didn't get the answer to that one!
What is the deal with Chuck?
Did he really go to a town meeting and call some old guy a socialist? Is he so mad at the town for not welcoming him when he went to that meeting that now he is "out to get Grafton"? I really think John Babiarz was way OFF when he said he needed only 25. He must have meant he only needed 25 IF the 25 were going to move to Grafton,NH and "act" like "normal" people until the voting day and then WHAM! a "free" town.
2:45 PM
>>I don’t think Rebecca is going to answer you, so I will.
WOW! Anonymous was right. I wasn't going to answer Micahel. He had SO MANY comments/assumptions/questions about my personal life that I decided this wasn't the place to address all of that. If/when Micahel finally moves to Grafton,NH I will ask him if he wants to get together and discuss all of this.We could have a good ole vegan potluck..or maybe not. I wouldn't want to force anyone to eat vegetables!
Rebecca
2:52 PM
OK.Is it safe to assume that many FTPers also belong to the yahoo group trying to form transtopia in the bahamas? I can't believe you all keep your transhumanist beliefs so quiet..
4:08 PM
You forgot to answer the questions you quoted.
4:46 PM
you catch one not wearing pants lock him up.
Pants? I wish I had pants. :-(
1:41 AM
25 million mother fucking dollars. That's what you paid for the Democratic Party convention. And the NHLA gets stuck with the bill because some scummy thieves stalk them outside the private gathering? Oh, plus 15 million to actually throw the "party."
Enjoy those balloons you dumb bitches. Fucking morons. LOL!
1:28 PM
"I wonder how much you have thought out your viewpoints considering property rights and libertarianism."
Abortion is wrong. And it's a right. That's libertarianism in a nutshell.
1:40 PM
Hey Grafton shitbags. THE PLAN IS TO TAKE YOU OVER BY FORCE! Don't get confused. I'm an FSP member and we talk about it all the time. We also formulate stories to spoon-feed this blog and twist your little hillbilly minds into our way of thinking. Haha, you are puppets.
You haven't had an original complaint or issue, that has not been planted by an FSP representative since the first week of inception. The funny thing is, I can tell you this now, and still be in control of you by the end of the day. The lights are a little dim in Grafton, and they will soon go out!
There is no plan to move to Grafton. Do you understand that shitbags?? Understand, when I say "shitbags" I'm talking about everyone in NH, not just Grafton. The plan is to TAKE OVER, migration is not necessary, who the fuck would live in Grafton on purpose anyway? BTW, NH wasn't chosen because it is the most " free state" it was chosen because the people who occupy it are generally the most ignorant residents that occupy any state and they are as defenseless as school girls when it comes to politics. You are completly predictable with every action you take. This blog is all you can do to defend yourselves against the impending take over?? That is why Grafton was chosen. Do you think the same response would be offered out west??? Not a chance, they would have skinned us alive for throwing Zack at them, but you people are great, you take it right in the ass and ask for more. Zack was great wasn't he?? I don't think anyone could have done it better. You responded with the usual predictability, just like what was planned. Haha, boy, it was beautiful!
Grafton will be TAKEN OVER! don't you worry about that. The snare has already been tripped by your very own top official. It's all over but the publicity for the next endeavor. This will go down in history as one of the most profound political coups in America's history, and ya'll git to be a part of it, so, look alive! Everyone is watching.
8:13 PM
>shitbags
Are those full of shit, or is it just you?
12:43 PM
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